Chat with a skeptic

A chat session with a skeptic (slightly edited for clarity).  It began before this as a political discussion, but where it went from there is interesting.


Skeptic:
Why not? We have been lied to since the beginning of time :)
wait till you see what's in store for us in the next 20 yrs
the enslavement
Myself:
I'm not expecting history to end pleasantly - anyone who reads the Bible knows that, but I think people will act "rationally" right up to the end
Skeptic:
why is the bible the only religious book that's accurate?
why are all the others wrong?
Myself:
 well, I believe that it is accurate, and any others are accurate at least as much as they agree with it
if they disagree, then I know which one I think is correct
Skeptic:
maybe we're all praying to the same god with a different interpretation
me personally even though I'm a christian, I'm more impressed with the Dali Lama than any other top religious leader
Myself:
Krishna = Allah = Jesus = Confuscious = ...?
Skeptic: 
strong in mind body and spirit
with much conviction
Myself: 
do you really believe that they're all the same?
Skeptic:
or were they all made up by a man?
Myself: well, if one man told a story 2600 years ago about another man who was going to die and rise from the dead to save his people, how did he know that 600 years later it would happen?
Skeptic:
and how did the story not get twisted?
and how do we know that it didn't?
Myself:
because we have texts from before the events that say the same thing as they say now
Skeptic:
maybe they put them in a washer and dryer many times so they look old
Myself:
you're funny
Skeptic:
and how do they know the earth is 4million years old
wheres noah's arc?
Myself:
the Jewish Bible has the story told 2600 years ago - why would they have twisted it if they don't believe in Jesus?
Skeptic:
shouldn't we have found animal carcasses?
why do jews believe the messiah hasn't come yet?
Myself:
because they don't believe that Jesus fulfilled all of the promises
Skeptic:
and why would they be god's people if they don't believe he has come yet
doesn't that show the ultimate form of historical ignorance by his "chosen people"
what about me? why am I not chosen?
as you can see I have a lot of questions :)
Myself:
why should you be chosen?  Do you want to be?
Skeptic:
if I was confirmed and convicted maybe I'd die for these sacks of trash that forsaked me too 
anyway I'm going to sign up to help "people"
not gods
Myself:
it looks to me like you've set up all kinds of barriers against being convicted - that every evidence that might point that way is a human invention and every evidence that points against it is gospel truth
so I really don't expect that you ever will be
Skeptic:
that's you're opinion and you're entitled to it
but at the same time I've been told that if I have ever been saved then I am always saved
so does that mean that I can do whatever I want now?
Myself:
saved people are saved from their sin, not saved to sin with abandon
Skeptic:
so what's worse, sin against myself or sin against others?
or are they the same
Myself:
all sin alienates us from God, some sin also does damage to our neighbors
Skeptic:
what if I treated everyone like god's chosen children but sinned against myself
am I going to hell for that?
but sin is still sin
Myself:
define "sin against yourself" - what do you mean by that?
Skeptic:
I'm sure you can think of some
how about suicide
drug and alcohol addiction
doing things in general to hurt your chances at this life
Myself:
ok - all of those have the common effect of making it difficult or impossible for you to use your life to glorify God or bless your neighbor.
so they are sins against both
they demand that I get to do what I want with myself and have no responsibility to others
which is the essence of sin
there are extenuating circumstances, granted
and God may forgive these too
Skeptic:
on what terms?
is this a case by case basis?
how does he have time for that?
Myself:
the same terms as He forgives all sins - with the blood of Jesus for someone who recognizes their need for it
God is omniscient and eternal - he has all the time he needs to deal with each of us individually
Skeptic:
it all sounds glorious
but is it real?
Myself:
it is
Skeptic:
in your opinion
Myself:
I'm not alone in that opinion
Skeptic:
there are 2 billion muslims that think the same thing of their religion too
Myself:
more Christians than that
Skeptic:
I heard there were only 1 billion christians in the world
Myself:
see here: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html  - 2 billion Christians, 1.5 billion Muslims
but majority vote doesn't prove things - all I'm saying is that if you think I'm a fool (which I may be), there are a lot more like me who are fools
Skeptic:
never said you were a fool
I respect your beliefs
Myself:
well, if I'm giving my money and my time away spending it on the hope of a future which is all wishful thinking, then I'd say that I'm a fool
why should I not spend it on my own pleasures instead?
Skeptic:
I know there is something there
I can feel it
and for which some of MY Christian friends think that I am a fool
I have to read the word to understand or know it
I can't feel it
thats too hard for them to grasp
Myself:
so you're sure that something is "there" - that you can feel it?
Skeptic:
of course
the true fools are the ones that can't make that distinction
all of this universe
multiverse
the galaxy the solar system
the sun the moon the planets
the rock were on 
and we are the only things that are here
gimme a break
my deeply religious friend told me the human was much more impressive than all of that
I vehemently disagree with that compared to the rest of whats out there
we are a mere biproduct
of brilliance
like a Mozart or Beethoven symphony across the stars
Myself:
so the big bang exploded and left behind Mozart or Beethoven...
I agree that the things that you describe are amazing, but I don't attribute that to the big bang by itself
I think they are evidence of God's shaping hand on the universe
Skeptic:
never said they weren't
I'm talking about what's out there
and here we are on this tiny little rock in one solar system
that's been around as long as a "vapor" according to the bible
and somehow we have aquired this divinity?
really?
Myself:
well, it wasn't by our doing, that's for sure
but evanescence doesn't say anything about our value
you can have two pieces of paper
one wrapped around a tube in the bathroom
one with the picture of a president on it with $10,000 in the corners
both paper
not equally valuable
we are dust, but dust with value
because we've been imprinted with a picture of God
Skeptic:
I hope your right
but I still find it hard to believe
Myself:
absolutely - it's the height of vanity to believe this if it's not true
Skeptic:
I'm not that attractive
Myself:
of course not - neither am I
money gets torn and damaged too - but remains valuable
and (as you well know from your Christian experience) Jesus died to make us clean again 
so it's not up to us
Skeptic:
good conversation my friend
Myself: 
yes - I very much enjoy talking about this kind of stuff

Psalm 100

[His Steadfast Love Endures Forever]
[A Psalm for giving thanks.]

[100:1] Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the earth!
[2] Serve the Lord with gladness!
Come into his presence with singing!

[3] Know that the Lord, he is God!
It is he who made us, and we are his;
we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

[4] Enter his gates with thanksgiving,
and his courts with praise!
Give thanks to him; bless his name!

[5] For the Lord is good;
his steadfast love endures forever,
and his faithfulness to all generations.
(Psalm 100 ESV)

This morning I was thinking about why our Christian witness is so feeble sometimes, and it occurred to me that it may be that we have forgotten how to truly rejoice in the Lord. We are burdened down with the cares of our own life and flooded with bad news from TV, radio, newspapers and the web to the point where the cares of the world threaten to completely swamp us. Under such circumstances, rejoicing in the Lord seems to be little more than whistling in the dark, a futile attempt to deny the real pains of this world.

But the ancient Jews also knew much about suffering, yet somehow they managed to write poetry like Psalm 100. And they begin by urging "all the earth" to make a joyful noise to the Lord. Even pagans, idolaters and deadly enemies of both the Lord and His people are called to serve Him with gladness. It is something to imagine the noise that would be made by this polyglot crowd, each proclaiming the goodness of God in their own tongue.

The Psalmist then goes on to proclaim with joy the reason why his people in particular should celebrate. "The Lord," that is the One Whom they worshiped and Who called them out of Egypt, this One is truly God, not a dead idol. And the people He chose are the sheep of His pasture, the people whom He faithfully watches over, protects and guides into good places.

So it is good to celebrate, and we are urged to do so, to enter into the gates of His temple with thanksgiving, rather than long somber faces burdened down with the cares of the world. We are to be grateful for the Lord's steady provision and rejoice in His goodness and greatness, "for the Lord is good, and His steadfast love endures forever." Implicit in this is the idea that we ourselves will also live forever, and so be able to enjoy His love and provision forever.

This is perhaps the reason why the Psalmist could rejoice; he saw beyond the troubles of his day, real though they were, to a life in which the Lord had overcome all these evils. Evils are transient, but God's love never ends. The people of God will outlive all of the sufferings that might plague them and will enter into a joy that makes those sufferings tame by comparison.

Do we live this way ourselves? Do we see that we are part of an eternal kingdom, that Jesus has prepared a place for us in it, and that we shall live forever with Him in glory? Can we look honestly at our sufferings and the sufferings of others and know with confidence that they will fade away, and that God is able to work them all for good? If so, does this realization engender joy in our lives, a joy that shows even in the troubles of life? If we live with a vision of the sure joy that is ours, then that ought perhaps trickle out a little into the rest of our lives, and may add something to our witness that is missing now, and might help some people to believe that there really is something in Christianity that they might want.

May it be so!

Psalm 103

Of David.

103:1 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
and all (every bit - nothing left out) that is within me,
bless (make Him happy with my praise of) his holy name!
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits (why is it so easy to forget these?),
3 who forgives all (every bit - nothing left out) your iniquity,
who heals all (every bit - nothing left out) your diseases (indeed, the life in my body that enables it to recover from sickness is all from Him),
4 who redeems your life from the pit (again and again, as I lose myself once more in the pit),
who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy (oh yes! love and mercy that endure through a thousand failures and missteps - what a splendid crown!),
5 who satisfies you with good (if it were up to me, I'd be dissatisfied with good - always looking for something "more" that is really far less - but He teaches me to be satisfied and more than satisfied with what is truly good).
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's (woohoo!).

6 The Lord works righteousness
and justice for all who are oppressed (wait patiently - it will yet come).
7 He made known his ways to Moses,
his acts to the people of Israel (how wonderful for God to choose this little people).
8 The Lord is merciful and gracious (not giving us what we deserve and giving us what we don't deserve),
slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love (how sweet the endless undeserved good).
9 He will not always chide (not like my wounded pride, which constantly chides me),
nor will he keep his anger forever (not like the resentment that gnaws my heart).
10 He does not deal with us according to our sins (that's for sure),
nor repay us according to our iniquities (whew!).
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him (this is incomprehensibly wonderful);
12 as far as the east is from the west (keep going...),
so far does he remove our transgressions from us (they are gone! - all of them!).
13 As a father shows compassion to his children,
so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him (the good father, the one who runs to meet the prodigal son).
14 For he knows our frame (better than I know it myself);
he remembers that we are dust (how often I'd rather be more than dust - a superhero - but I wear myself out trying) .

15 As for man, his days are like grass;
he flourishes like a flower of the field;
16 for the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
and its place knows it no more (the promise was that we'd be like gods - but on my own I can't be. I'm too weak and wilt like grass under the summer sun).
17 But the steadfast love of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him (in His love, I will live from everlasting to everlasting - as enduring as His love),
and his righteousness to children's children (thank you, Lord, for loving my children better than I can),
18 to those who keep his covenant
and remember to do his commandments (by your grace, Lord...).
19 The Lord has established his throne in the heavens,
and his kingdom rules over all (everything - nothing left out - He is Lord).

20 Bless the Lord, O you his angels (yes!),
you mighty ones who do his word,
obeying the voice of his word!
21 Bless the Lord, all his hosts (yes!),
his ministers, who do his will!
22 Bless the Lord, all his works (yes!),
in all (every one, none left out) places of his dominion.
Bless the Lord, O my soul (Amen and amen) !

Isaiah 13-20

Babylon, Philistia, Moab, Damascus, Cush, Assyria, Egypt - all powers in the land, none of them friends of the people of God. Yet despite the power with which they dominated or seduced God's people, the Lord will have the final word.

The Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day (19:21).

In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, whom the Lord of hosts has blessed, saying "Blessed by Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance."

Assyria, Judah's most dangerous foe, and Egypt, her most dangerous ally, will be united with Judah and they will all be God's people. Thank you, Lord, for overcoming your enemies by making them your friends and your people.

Numbers 4

God was dangerous then. Only designated people could handle His things, and then only in the appropriate way, lest they die. He is still dangerous, and if He were to approach us so closely again, we would be in the same peril. Only the designated people could stand. Today we celebrate the birth of the One by whom we become the designated people of God, a kingdom of priests, who may touch His things without peril. It is His blood that cleanses us, that sets us apart so we may enter the Holy Place of God and stand in His presence without dying. Thank you God, for sending your Son so that all who believe in you may stand before you and live.

Numbers 2

Everything decently and in order. For those of us who feel like order and structure stifle the Spirit, this passage is an antidote. Thank you God for working in orderly ways as well as in the unexpected, for being the Creator of patterns and structure and order as well as the One who interrupts all of our tidy arrangements. Help me to learn from your ordering of things and to joyfully submit to the order that you establish for my life.

Psalm 98

Rejoice, celebrate, make a racket for the Lord, the righteous judge, comes! All we have had until now are unrighteous judges, who could not tell evil from good, whose own interests interfered with what was really right, who were blind to the truth. Even I myself have unrighteously judged myself, condemning what was right in my life and excusing what was sinful. But now the righteous judge comes and he will show the unanswerable truth about who we are. The good will be seen and celebrated for what it is, and the evil will be seen and condemned for what it is. No more wolves in sheep's clothing, no more invisible and unacknowledged good. And for those who have turned their lives over to the good shepherd, the evil that is condemned will be washed away by the blood of the Lamb and the good will be raised to new life. Praise God, for He will make things right at last!